dvd-hq.info Forum Index dvd-hq.info
DVD & video forums
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Jerky Video on Domestic DVD Player (DVD-R)

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    dvd-hq.info Forum Index -> Compression
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BF



Joined: 01 Feb 2004
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun 1 Feb 2004, 19:08    Post subject: Jerky Video on Domestic DVD Player (DVD-R) Reply with quote

When I play back my authored DVD-R on a domestic DVD player I encounter lots of stutters and jumps.

This seems to be a common problem as I have discovered from reading through this and other forums.

When the stuttering occurs the DVD player can be heard to make unhealthy sounding noises (quite unnerving really). This does not happen on other DVD's, e.g. Hollywood type DVD's & other DVD-R's.

I created a second DVD and reduced the Max bitrate (2-pass VBR). Under 'Verify' in ReelDVD (3.0.3) it now reports the following:

Info === Verification 04-t ===
Info -- Total bitrate --
Info Main video bitrate = 7150000, data = "04"
Info Audio stream ID = 1, bitrate = 224000, type = AC-3, data = "04_1"
Info Sum of audio bitrate = 224000.
Info Total bitrate = 7374000 [ audio + main video ]
Info === Finish.[Verification] ===

I don't believe that it is a bit rate problem so what could be causing the trouble?

Sonic CinePlayer plays both the hard disk and DVD versions of the project OK on the computer.

In total I have 110 minutes of Video / Audio. Image Encoding Rate in ReelDVD is set to 7.0 Mbps. There is only one audio stream per track. There are no subtitles.

I don't believe it is a field order problem because the picture quality looks excellent in the parts where it does not stutter.

The DVD-R medium is Verbatim.


Regards,
Brian

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is a complete listing of the TMPGEnc parameters used
(TMPGEnc-2.521.58.169-Plus-EN-Installer-DL.exe):


Set the Stream type to ES (video-only) [Audio processed by ReelDVD into Dolby 224kbps].


VIDEO
Stream type: MPEG-2 Video
Size: 720 x 576
Aspect ratio: 4:3 Display
Frame rate: 25 fps
Setting -> 25 / 1 = 25
Rate control mode: 2-pass VBR(VBR)
Setting -> Average bitrate: 5150
Maximum bitrate: 7150
Minimum bitrate: 2050
Max pass: 2 pass
Enable padding not to be lower than minimum bit rate = Disabled
P picture spoilage: 0
B picture spoilage: 0
VBV buffer size: 224
Profile & Level: Main Profile & Main Level (MP@ML)
Video format: PAL
Encode mode: Interlace
YUV format: 4:2:0
DC component precision: 10 bits
Motion search precision: Highest quality (very slow)


ADVANCED
Video source type: Interlace
Field order: Top field first (field A)
Source Aspect ration: 4:2 625 line (PAL)
Video arrange Method: Full screen
No filter settings


GOP STRUCTURE
IBPBPBPBP
Number of I picture in GOP: 1
Number of P picture in GOP: 4
Number of B picture in GOP: 1
Output interval of sequence header: 1
MAX number of frames in GOP: 15
Output bitstream for edit (Closed GOP): Enabled
Detect Scene change: Enabled
Force picture type setting: Disabled


QUANTIZE MATRIX
Default
Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601: Disabled
Use floating point DCT (While using SSE, always ON): Enabled
No motion search for still picture part by half pixel: Disabled
Soften block noise: Disabled

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
RMN
Site Admin


Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 587
Location: Lisboa, Portugal

PostPosted: Mon 2 Feb 2004, 21:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

From your description, that's clearly an issue of (in)compatibility between the player and the media. Set-top players have very picky (i.e., bad) drives, compared to PC drives.

You may get better results using the same media on a different recorder or recording it at a lower speed, but the simplest solution is to try different media. In my experience, Maxell and Pioneer DVD-R discs have the best compatibility.

RMN
~~~
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
BF



Joined: 01 Feb 2004
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Mon 2 Feb 2004, 21:46    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting.

I need to use printable DVD-R media and Verbatim seems to be all there is available in London (UK).

Originally I used the more expensive Maxell DR47PW media, but now nobody seems to stock them.

Although ReelDVD can burn the DVD for me I usually have it make an ISO image and then I use Roxio (Easy CD Creator 5) to burn the image onto the DVD at 1x speed.

Unfortunately ReelDVD cannot burn at low speeds.

Regards,
Brian
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
RMN
Site Admin


Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 587
Location: Lisboa, Portugal

PostPosted: Wed 4 Feb 2004, 3:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

And did the Maxell disc work? Try a (non-white) Maxell or Pioneer disc and see if it plays correctly. If it does, you'll know what you need is different media (you can probably order them over the net). If it doesn't, there may be some problem with your recorder. Also, try a few different players; your player could just be especially picky about which discs it likes.

RMN
~~~
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
BF



Joined: 01 Feb 2004
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed 4 Feb 2004, 20:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And did the Maxell disc work?


I used Maxell discs last year and they seemed OK. Once they became hard to get hold of I switched over to Verbatim (Reorder 43207).

The Verbatim's worked reasonably well and as I had a few left over I used them on my new project. Unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to try the Maxell this time.

Since I first started this thread I've tried something new. I re-flashed the Sony DRX-500UL with the latest firmware (500A_20h) and burnt a new disc using Nero 6.303 in DVD-video mode.

Unfortunately it has made no difference.

I am in communication with Sonic support and they suggest that I nudge the minimum bitrate setting up to 4000 and use a GOP size of 13 with a GOP pattern of IBBPBBPBBP.

My next step now is to re-encode all my material.

Pegasys Inc support also think that it is a compatibilty issue between DVD-R and my DVD driver or that the DVD player is not compatible with DVD-R. They don't believe that anything is wrong with my TMPGEncode settings.

When I do re-encode my material as well as incorporating Sonic support's suggestions I also intend to Enable padding, return the B spoilage value to 20 and also set the VBV buffer size to 0 (although why 0 - default - would be better than the defacto DVD value of 224 I am unsure).

I'm also going to have a go at burning the new MPEG-2 files on three other printable DVD-R discs that I have just sourced; Ritek, Taiyo Yuden and River.


Regards,
Brian
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
RMN
Site Admin


Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 587
Location: Lisboa, Portugal

PostPosted: Thu 5 Feb 2004, 22:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect the changes in the settings won't have any effect whatsoever. The problem is in the reading of the data, not its processing. Your current values are perfectly within DVD spec, and can be decoded by any DVD player. Sonic technical support is know for its reliability: they are nearly always wrong. Wink

RMN
~~~
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
BF



Joined: 01 Feb 2004
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun 8 Feb 2004, 13:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally tracked down the source of the problem and it did turn out to be the media, although there is a slight twist to the story.

What baffled me is how the same media from the same stock that I had used on a previous project without problem suddenly started causing the stuttering and jumping.

The evidence did point towards the media but the only difference that I could see between the two projects was the parameters used in the MPEG-2 encoding.

Late Friday I created another test disc that contained a selection of encoded files with different MPEG values, mainly GOP related.

When I played the disc it still stuttered on each of the sections. This finally convinced me that the problem was not MPEG related.

I've certainly learnt a lot more about MPEG-2 and DVD authoring in the past seven days. I've even discovered that ReelDVD CAN accept open GOP MPEG files despite the manual saying that closed GOP's are required. However Sonic Technical Support do recommended that open GOP's are not used in DVD's.

Saturday morning I decided to watch my new test DVD again. This time the disc played perfectly!

It was then that I realised what the difference had been all along. Heat!! In the last project I had only played the DVD's on a cold system.

The DVD player and Amp had been switched off overnight and in the morning they were cold.

When the amp is left on all day, like it usually is, the heat rises making the DVD player on top of the amp hot. The DVD player also generates a lot of heat when it is switched on but that is a separate cause for concern.

After 5 minutes of playing the heat built up and the same problem appeared.

The DVD-R's I had been using were the crazy looking Verbatim (Reorder 43207) which have the printable area nearly all the way into the centre of the disc.

Towards the hub of the disc, in the printable area, the name 'Verbatim' and 'DVD-R 2x' is etched in. I think this may cause the disc to run in an eccentric manner or alter the aerodynamics of the disc. It would appear that heat exasperates the condition.

The effect is similar to sticking Neato CD labels on a DVD. Some players, mine included, have trouble playing afterwards because the disc is imbalanced and / or the aerodynamics change.

There is also another version of these Verbatim discs with a slightly different reorder number that don't have the printable area going nearly all the way into the centre. The manufacturer ID is the same MCC 00RG200. This disc also stuttered but nowhere as badly as its sibling.

I tried three other brand of discs, those with Manufacturer ID's TYG01, RITEKG04 & PRODISCG01. They all played perfectly, even when the system was hot.

Next step is to see how they each play when printed on. Then it's time to move the DVD player Smile

Regards,
Brian
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
RMN
Site Admin


Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 587
Location: Lisboa, Portugal

PostPosted: Sun 8 Feb 2004, 23:05    Post subject: Reply with quote

BF wrote:
It was then that I realised what the difference had been all along. Heat!! In the last project I had only played the DVD's on a cold system.


Yes, this is quite common. If a player just barely manages to focus the laser when it's cold, it's likely to produce a lot of errors when it's hot. Same thing used to happen with floppy disks, BTW.

BF wrote:
Towards the hub of the disc, in the printable area, the name 'Verbatim' and 'DVD-R 2x' is etched in. I think this may cause the disc to run in an eccentric manner or alter the aerodynamics of the disc.


I don't think video DVDs spin fast enough for calibration to be an issue (unless they're very miscalibrated). It can be an issue when reading them in DVD-ROM drives, though (which spin the discs much faster), but the drive should be able to detect the problem and switch to a lower speed automatically.

BF wrote:
The effect is similar to sticking Neato CD labels on a DVD. Some players, mine included, have trouble playing afterwards because the disc is imbalanced and / or the aerodynamics change.


If the label isn't properly centered, yes, it can cause problems. It will also make the disc a lot less able to dissipate the heat. I've found that Lorenz-Bell shiny labels work quite well (at least on my players).

I don't know if Maxell make printable DVDs, but I'm pretty sure Pioneer do. If you manage to get them, give them a try. I expect they'll be as good as regular Pioneer DVD-Rs.

RMN
~~~
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
neil wilkes



Joined: 26 Dec 2003
Posts: 51
Location: London, England

PostPosted: Wed 18 Feb 2004, 13:21    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Maxell printable DVD's can be ordered from Protape in London. I use a combination of these & the Verbatim discs, admittedly the Maxells for choice.
One thing with using WORM media in settop players, try to ensure that your total bitrate does not exceed 7MB/sec if you are having read issues.
Some settop players with poor WORM implementation seem happier at 7 or lower, despite what the specs actually say. Remember the specs are for manufactured discs, not writeables.

The URL for Protape is https://www.protape.co.uk/cgi-bin/protape.storefront
They do credit accounts, and will also replace faulty media if returned within 30 days, they deliver to your door at no charge, can't complain really. Top people.
_________________
www.opusproductions.com
Digital Audio Specialists
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    dvd-hq.info Forum Index -> Compression All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group