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Letter Box 2

 
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kc_moses



Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Olathe

PostPosted: Mon 5 Jul 2004, 6:27    Post subject: Letter Box 2 Reply with quote

rmn,

Is there any reason why the original Letter Box thread is locked?

Quote:
If you specified 720x480 in TMPGEnc's output settings, then the file is 720x480. Software players will resize the file during playback to match the PC screen's aspect ratio. If the file was 720x540, the DVD authoring program wouldn't accept it.

I suspect something along the way (possibly Premiere) is adding the letterboxing. See my suggestion in the other thread.

RMN


I looked at all the thread here and couldn't find much information about the setting in Premiere.

I read some where and they suggested to use MPEG Properties to check the mpeg2 I created, they're indeed 720x480. All I need to do now is remove the letterbox. Again, I tried "Full screen" and "no margin" in TMPGEnc and they don't make any different.

I seems like something went wrong before the video gets to TMPGenc. I tried to output to Avi from Premiere and everything seems fine. When I try to output through the frameserver, I followed all the settings described in the guide for avisynch, but in my case, it is PluginPac server.

I'm spending the whole July 4th weekend trying to get this resolve but is getting no where.... Sad I'm totally lost now. Avisynth route doesn't work for me because I'm using Premiere Pro and the Avisynth Premiere plug-in doesn't work...
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RMN
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Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 587
Location: Lisboa, Portugal

PostPosted: Mon 5 Jul 2004, 16:25    Post subject: Re: Letter Box 2 Reply with quote

kc_moses wrote:
Is there any reason why the original Letter Box thread is locked?


Yes, this is about DVD creation, not video editing, so it should go into the DVD compression or authoring forum (where you had already posted the same question). I've moved all threads to this forum. Please don't create new threads; phpBB can't merge threads, so things get very messy.

Quote:
check the mpeg2 I created, they're indeed 720x480. All I need to do now is remove the letterbox.


Yes, as I said, if they weren't 720x480, your DVD authoring program wouldn't have accepted them. And what you need isn't exactly to remove the letterbox; what you need is to prevent it from being added. Smile

Quote:
I tried "Full screen" and "no margin" in TMPGEnc and they don't make any different.


Which indicates it's not being added by TMPGEnc. As I said, it's probably being added by Premiere, because it thinks it's exporting to a square-pixel format, while the original uses a NTSC DV pixel aspect ratio.

It could also be caused by the frameserver, but I doubt that. Still, you can try asking Satish (PluginPac's author) if this is a known problem.

Quote:
I looked at all the thread here and couldn't find much information about the setting in Premiere.


As I mentioned in the first thread, the relevant setting here would be Premiere's pixel aspect ratio. When you export the movie, under "Video" you can select the resolution and pixel aspect ratio. If it's set to square (1.0), try changing it to NTSC DV (0.9), or vice-versa, and see if it makes any difference.

Which versions of TMPGEnc and Premiere Pro are you using?

RMN
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kc_moses



Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Olathe

PostPosted: Tue 6 Jul 2004, 14:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks rmn for clarify the thread move. I thought is't a post processing question so I crossed posted it.

I suspect it's the frameserver issue as I tried export avi from Premiere Pro and there is no problem at all, 4:3 no letter box. I looked around PluginPac's forum and didn't see any bug report about letter box. I will need to spend time to consult people over there.

I'm using TMPGEnc Plus 2.5 and Premiere Pro 1.5.

In the export of Premiere Pro, I specified it at 4:3 (0.9) DV.

Yesterday, I tried to export DV Avi from Premiere and used Ulead MovieFactory 3 to create DVD, the quality seems okay and I don't have the letterbox problem (well the movie start off in letterbox for a second then changed to full screen, which I don't know why). I still like the quality of TMPGEnc, so I would really like to make it work. Tonight, I will try to take the same DV Avi that I used to import to Ulead and feed it to TMPGEnc and see if I get letterbox.
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RMN
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PostPosted: Tue 6 Jul 2004, 16:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

kc_moses wrote:
I looked around PluginPac's forum and didn't see any bug report about letter box. I will need to spend time to consult people over there.


Just send Satish an e-mail, he usually reads them and replies pretty quickly. I have a feeling the problem is related to how Premiere Pro handles the pixel aspect ratio.

kc_moses wrote:
In the export of Premiere Pro, I specified it at 4:3 (0.9) DV.


Try using square pixel (1.0) instead (the "image aspect ratio" value will change to 5:4 but don't worry, you can override that if you select 4:3 in TMPGEnc).

If that still doesn't work, just export a big DV AVI and import that into TMPGEnc. Takes longer but should avoid any problems.

Premiere Pro creates AVIs with a slightly strange structure (different from 6.x) , so TMPGEnc might refuse the AVI file. If it does, try increasing the priority of the DirectShow reader, as described in this thread.

RMN
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kc_moses



Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Olathe

PostPosted: Wed 7 Jul 2004, 15:15    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I got all the problem taken care of. How? By not using Premiere Pro!!!

I manage to borrow my friend's Premiere 6.5 (I know I know, I just want to borrow it for testing). I uninstall Premiere Pro, and all the AviSynth stuff as well. Then installed Premiere 6.5, and reinstall the PluginPac Framserver so that it would install the plugin to Premiere's folder. I recreated a short project in Premiere and went through all the things I have been doing. Upon finish encoding in TMPGEnc, I don't have the letter box anymore!!!

I'm going to stay away from Premiere Pro for now until the a better solution comes out. Thanks for all the help and advice rmn!
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RMN
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PostPosted: Thu 8 Jul 2004, 18:10    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can keep both versions of Premiere installed in the same system (it's what I've done - Premiere Pro to get used to the new interface, Premiere 6 when I actually need to get something done Wink)...

BTW, I've just found yet another bug in Premiere Pro (1.5). If you slow something down to less than 4% of its original speed, the audio won't export. It'll play back fine on the timeline, but when you render or export it, it comes out as silence. At 4% (or faster) it works fine. At less than that, just silence. Makes perfect sense, huh? Rolling Eyes

RMN
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kc_moses



Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Olathe

PostPosted: Fri 9 Jul 2004, 0:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

rmn,

Thanks for letting me know that Premiere Pro and 6.5 can co-exist together.

I have another challenge that I can't export progressive movie with 6.5. Mad

I tried a Microsoft AVI with InterVideo 5.10, and tried Bottom and None for the field order, made sure it's Deinterlace. I get lots of line at the exported movies. I know it's okay for regular TV, but it's not okay for viewing back with computer.

I need to investigate Premiere Pro futher. Premiere Pro is easy to use, but just have too many bugs....
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RMN
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PostPosted: Fri 9 Jul 2004, 3:59    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "field order" setting in Premiere applies only to the effects rendered within Premiere, not to the actual video. The field order of the video was determined when it was recorded (ex., by the camera).

If you want to convert interlaced video to non-interlaced, you need to right-click on the clips and select "always deinterlace", in the "field options". Note that deinterlacing interlaced video will make you lose half the resolution.

Why do you need to deinterlace it, anyway?

In Premiere's preview window, it should be deinterlaced. And if you create a DVD and play it back with a DVD player (ex., PowerDVD, WinDVD, etc.), it'll also be deinterlaced during playback. If you deinterlace the actual file, not only will you lose resolution, it'll also appear choppy when you play it back on a TV.

RMN
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kc_moses



Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Olathe

PostPosted: Fri 9 Jul 2004, 21:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought miniDV source are all progressive.

The video project is a race car scene, with high speed movement, I thought progressive is appropriate.

I used the same setting in Premiere Pro and didn't have the interacing issue, but with letter box. I will try your method of right click the clip and go from there.

Thanks and have a good weekend!
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RMN
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PostPosted: Sun 11 Jul 2004, 0:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, all DV (or MiniDV, DVCAM, etc.) cameras are interlaced by default. Some have the option to switch to progressive. Fast motion looks like crap in progressive mode (because you only get 30 updates per second, instead of 60).

Also, the so-called "progressive scan TVs" actually need an interlaced signal to be able to do their trick (duplicate the frame rate). If you feed them a non-interlaced (progressive) signal, they won't be able to process it properly.

So, as a general rule (especially for things with fast motion), stick to interlaced and use a good player on the computer, that will do the de-interlacing during playback. Don't worry about how it looks in Premiere 6's preview window. If you want a reliable preview while you're editing, use an external video monitor (a TV will do fine). Connect the TV to your camera (via S-Video, for example), connect the camera to your PC (via Firewire), and make sure that Premiere is configured to "show preview on DV hardware".

RMN
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kc_moses



Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Olathe

PostPosted: Sun 11 Jul 2004, 13:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, DV is more complex than I thought Shocked

I will give all your suggestion a trys. I guess the best way to learn is learn from mistakes.....

Thanks again!
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RMN
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Jul 2004, 17:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not specifically DV, this applies to all video.

In interlaced video, you have a defined resolution (ex., 720x576) and a defined bandwidth (ex., 10 thousand pixels per second). You can decide to do 25 full-screen updates per second ("progressive scan") or 50 half-screen updates per second (interlaced - where one "half" is the even lines, and the other is the odd lines). The former gives you better resolution, and is more appropriate for slow-moving subjects. The latter makes motion more fluid, and is more appropriate for fast motion.

The numbers above are for PAL, but NTSC is similar (720x480 and 29.97 or 59.94 updates).

Both types of video will play fine on interlaced TVs, although interlaced video will appear more fluid. Non-interlaced monitors (like PC monitors) always show the full frames, so you'll get jagged edges in interlaced video (it's up to the software to make sure the image sent to the monitor is de-interlaced first).

Individual cameras may have some limitations (ex., need longer exposure for progressive scan), and some actually "fake" progressive scan by capturing only half the lines and then interpolating the rest. In this case, you lose the fluidity and don't gain any extra detail, so it's a waste.

Unless you have a really strong reason to use progressive scan (ex., if you're going to transfer to film later, or if you video is always going to be shown on computer monitors), stick to interlaced.

RMN
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